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 再推荐一篇文章 二子 (2008-04-12 17:20 阅读人次:1981) 
  为什么西方文明在近代战胜了东方文明?这篇文章也许就是一个例证。德国人写的,关于西藏,关于中国于世界。

  
有时候我不知道,关于西藏大家到底在吵什么?

  


  
Many Chinese people wonder what is happening these days regarding the Olympics and Tibet and why the West behaves in such an unexplainable way.

  
I fell very sorry what is happening these days. Is not fair to take hostage of the Olympic games and the World audience for an political issue.

  
Therefore I tried to write something that may give some explanation and background.

  
I hope my thoughts are understood the right way, create no offense (if so it was not intended) and help to understand the situation from a perspective from outside of China.

  
What one may want to consider is the following:

  
The Dalai Lama has had several decades to criss-cross planet Earth and do a permanent PR-tour. He has given many lectures all over the world, been on many TV-shows and on radio, was interviewed countless times in newspapers and magazines. He has written many books and articles (search for Dalai Lama on www.amazon.com, the biggest online book seller). DL constantly talks about how to lead a good life, be a good person, partner and citizen, do no harm, be peaceful, be respectful, be a loving person and he also talks about how to gain equilibrium, peace of mind, become a thoughtful and balanced personality and many many other things. So over the course of tens of years, the Dalai Lama managed to appear as an embodiment of all positive human traits you can possibly attribute to a human being. So he appears as the proof of an ideal human person who does and cannot do wrong because of his outstanding loving and peaceful character and the ultimate wisdom which he has integrated into his being. The Dalai Lama has become sort of an esoteric, mystic and holy person in the West. He appears as the high priest of being a good human being.

  
So as it happens to be, when the Dalai Lama appeared on TV and talked about how to find balance and love in your life, at the end of the talk the moderator then asks: "You seem to be a very happy person. Is there something in your life, that you are missing or something that you are unhappy about?" He then would say, that one of his few wishes is to be able to go back to his homeland that he loves and misses so much. And then the discussion about Tibet would start and in the course of that the Dalai Lama would say, that he was forced to leave his beloved homeland because after an uprising of the Tibetians against the oppressive rule of China, he had to fear for his life and had to leave overnight with nothing but his firm belief. And China still would not allow him to go back home even after all those years have passed by and even after he said he only wants cultural independence, nothing else. Nobody however discusses what cultural independence could/would mean. More feelings and spiritual things then details.

  
In the rest of the world no one, really no one has any idea about life used to be in former times under the rule of the Lamas and the rich people. There is simply no real information or reports available, no pictures, no stories, no TV features, no books, nothing. All we hear is in conjunction with the Dalai Lama. We have no clue about what it meant to be a serf in the former Tibetian serf systems. Nobody knows what could have and did happen(d) to a disobedient serf and his family. To rest of the world it appears that China has invaded Tibet against its will and has robbed the land unlawfully and now is exploiting its natural resources for Chinas own good. Tibet was always very far away and remote from us, nobody paid any attention really, all we saw was the DL and we heard stories about Lama monks with special wisdom, meditation exercises and how to become enlightend and how peaceful all of the Tebetians and especially the Lamas were (no harm, not even allowed to kill a fly, etc.).

  
Because mediation, self reflection, self-finding methods, spirituality etc. etc. are en vogue these days, many people also adore the DL since they project their own inter-personal (spiritual) shortcomings (which everybody has) onto the (holy) DL. Because many people believe the wise DL has the ancient wisdom and secret knowledge that could potentially help to finally heal a person's hurt soul.

  
So the reception of the DL in the West was completely different form the picture of the DL in China.

  
Now, think about what happens these days. There is an uproar in Lhasa and the Chinese government makes harsh comments, sends military personal, accuses the DL that he only tells lies and the DL is a really bad person, almost a beast. This is a message understood and perceived completely differently in China and in the rest of the world. In China people of course have more knowledge about the history of Tibet and have a different understanding of politics in general as well because of a different history. The rest of the world simply has now concept of how to deal with this and they do not know what they don't know. They think, that they "know" that the DL is very fine person with all the good attributes you can assign to a human being. And then a disgruntled (because angry) Chinese government official says that the DL is a bad and violent liar. This is completely against the current model of world which the West has and they have no "logical" explanation about why someone would call such a wonderful person (DL) a liar. So many think, that if the DL is so wonderful because he has "proven" it and someone else says something bad about the DL, so maybe the person who has a bad opinion about the DL has an hidden agenda or he himself might be bad person (think about a person you really like and someone else bad-mouthes him/her). This looks logical, because if you have a "proven" good person and someone calls him bad, then the other one is wrong for whatever reason. And then you think what the bad reasons could be to call the other person (the DL) a bad person. All of this happens unconsciously, this is what makes it so effective. It's all psychology.

  
So this is all about different perception, different model of the world, and of psychology.

  
What to do?

  
I think that China may consider to have a separate message for the rest of the world. No harsh words about the DL because those are utterly counterproductive, they only will have a negative effect as of now. Give details that lets the Western audience allow to build a new opinion. Give background information, reports, pictures, high-resolution downloads and the like. Send educated and nice people to Western talk-shows. Have Tibetians appear on a Western TV show and let him/her give his perspective. How was life for an ordinary person in former Tibet?? What were the habits of those monks and feudalists? How did they treat their underlings? What were the practices and daily routines of the Lamas? Were they respectful to ordinary citizens? How did the life and the rights of women look like?? What were successful projects in Tibet were Chinese and Tibetians cooperated very successfully and in friendship? Are there any happy marriages between Han-Chinese and Tibet-people? Were Tibetian kids allowed to go to school in China, how did they like it and did they have a successful career? And so on and so forth. Don't attack because an attack always provokes a defense. Do it the indirect way, this is much more powerful and lasting. I understand that you may be angry, but if you are just angry and say angry things the Westerners only understand this as a confirmation of what they currently have in their mind. Patiently explain things, give background information, give details and talk about how you feel in todays China. So do it piece-by-piece, step-by-step show and explain how you see the situation.

  
And by the way, the West normally is very irritated if a religious leader demands political influence. But when it comes to the DL, nobody seems to notice that. They always talk about the religious leader respectively the spiritual leader of the Tibetian society. China has not addressed this in the Western media and did not yet talk about what it means to mix religion and political power etc..

  
Good luck with the Olympic Games!

  
I cross my fingers for you!

  
Best wishes and greetings from Germany.

  


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  回复[1]: 自己顶一下 二子 (2008-04-12 17:23)  
  本来是打算写一篇关于西藏的文字的,结果发现这个德国佬把我要说的全都说了。

  


  
歇菜。

  回复[2]:  蛇 (2008-04-12 17:48)  
  > 结果发现这个德国佬把我要说的全都说了

  
+++++

  
> ... DL appears as the proof of an ideal human person who does and cannot do wrong because of his outstanding loving and peaceful character and the ultimate wisdom which he has integrated into his being ...

  
> ... China still would not allow him to go back home even after all those years have passed by and even after he said he only wants cultural independence, nothing else ...

  
> .... In the rest of the world no one, really no one has any idea about life used to be in former times under the rule of the Lamas and the rich people ...

  
> ... All we hear is in conjunction with the Dalai Lama. We have no clue about what it meant to be a serf in the former Tibetian serf systems ...

  
+++++

  
> What to do?

  
> I think that China should show ... how ... what ... how ... what ... how ... what ...

  
> ... do it piece-by-piece, step-by-step show and explain how you see the situation ...

  
> ... China has not addressed this in the Western media and did not yet talk about what it means to mix religion and political power etc ...

  
+++++

  
unnecessary addition:

  
no new point of view!

  回复[3]: 欺负俺们不识洋文的 陈某 (2008-04-12 17:59)  
  可是俺会找自动翻译

  回复[4]: ????? 二子 (2008-04-12 18:01)  
  > no new point of view??

  
我想这人写这个不是为了“new“ point of view

  
new 不new的有什么关系,关键是他说的有道理。

  
这篇文章不是要解决什么问题,是说怎么看问题。他说过要figure out why,然后再fix它?

  
他通篇说的是看问题的角度。我的意思是说西方人和中国人在西藏上的对立根本就风马牛。

  
这个人其实说了最深层次的东西,new不new我不知道,但是他其实很尖锐,只是语气平和罢了。他说的西方人在举起呐喊的那一刻,根本没有了解tibet,也没有真正试图去了解tibet。

  


  
西方人在自我反思的方面确实做得比东方人好。

  
in or out?

  
who care?

  回复[5]: 其实人家说的是最根本的问题 二子 (2008-04-12 18:06)  
  为什么不好好读读他对DL的那段评论?

  


  
事实上他回答了关于how的问题。

  
简单的说,西方人也好,中国人也好,企图为西藏做一个了断的时候,我们想知道,到底什么是西藏问题,到底存在不存在一个中国和西方之间分歧至深的西藏问题。

  


  

  回复[6]:  蛇 (2008-04-12 18:32)  
  干脆说明了吧∶

  
+++++

  
> 西方正在被“一叶障目”,“叶”当然是DL。

  
> 中国应该怎么做?

  
> 1)向世界展示59(58?)年后的成就,最好要有59年前的比较数据 -> 赢得西方赞扬

  
> 2)要强调“政教合一” -> 引起西方厌恶

  
+++++

  
法*斯的那种典型的“宣传机器”意识!

  回复[7]: 崩溃了! 二子 (2008-04-12 20:40)  
  我有个问题,是不是所有的事情都必须在既定好的轨道上运行才可以被接受?是不是“正义”,"真理“由一方定好然后所有人低头接受才是“自由”?

  
“正义”是什么东西?

  
对一方正义就是对另外一方不正义,90%的时候是这样的。你也好,我也好,不过是站在自认为所谓“正义”的一边罢了。这个德国人说的事情只是两边应该有交流,我不是很清楚,这个为什么会招致你的反感。

  


  
>法*斯的那种典型的“宣传机器”意识!

  
你的帽子已经大得吓着人了。千万别告诉我你不是在受“宣传机器”影响。

  
关于西藏问题,按照我看到的,这里只有夏夏亲历过些什么,其他人不过是道听途说,纸上谈兵罢了。

  

  回复[8]:  蛇 (2008-04-12 21:00)  
  嘿嘿!帽子是有点大了~~~

  
话又说回来了,这个德国人的两个建议确实不怎么样,按他那个意思,就是说中国政府做的已经非常好了,不用再改进了,就差这么一点∶不会宣传!只要在宣传上再下点工夫就可以了。

  
+++++

  
> 为什么会招致你的反感

  
此人

  
1,让GCD宣传他在西藏的政绩

  
2,给GCD出损招

  
而具体做则是以“国家名义”来做,让整个国家做“宣传机器”。

  
当然了,如果你不说这是个德国人,我也就不会想到什么法*斯了~~~

  
+++++

  
> 其他人不过是道听途说,纸上谈兵罢了

  
如果要是这么说的话,这事只能让藏人自己做主了,要不,干脆让他们搞一把“公投”?你看这样可以嘛?

  回复[9]: 那么我继续有问题了 二子 (2008-04-12 21:33)  
  请问,

  
共产党不可一宣传他在西藏的政绩么?你认为不认为那是政绩是另外一回事儿,把事实摆出来有什么不可以的?

  
ok,你可以把所有的事情都解释为共产党在西藏种族灭绝,文化灭绝。没问题。你可以把所有的事实都解释成西藏自古和中国毫无关系,或者从来没有隶属于中国。没问题。

  
问题是你需要让西方人先知道文成公主,知道青藏铁路。解读是一回事儿,对话是另外一会儿。德国人说的很对,西方人知道的是达赖喇嘛不是西藏。

  
另外,还有一个更直接的问题

  
这个德国人不可以为共产党支招儿么?他没有怂恿共产党去杀人,去放火。你的反感是不是来自既定的立场而不是直接针对文章观点本身的呢?你有想过这个问题么?

  


  
好。现在我们回到主题。

  
事实上,我没看出来他在为共产党支招儿。我一直在提醒你注意他对DL的分析。他在反思一件事情,就是西方人自己对西藏的认识从何而来。我不知道他的分析是否可一代表西方人的真正思想,但是有一点是肯定的,他没有形而上的讨论human right,讨论民主,自由,他的思考直接针对问题本身。

  
我们要对一个问题做分析,首先要正确定义问题。他的疑问是,西藏,西方人对西藏的认识缘何而来?他说的很有章法。我没有说他说的一定是对的,但是他的思考角度很好。而且事实上西方人就是在这点上超越东方人,他们更直接的关注问题本身,而且更加理性。观点是否正确完全是另外一回事儿。

  


  
最后说公投。没问题啊。藏人当然可一公投。反而言之,中华人民共和国的执政者当然也一样需要维护主权完整。你觉得这两者有什么本质的区别么?说到底又是立场问题,维护一方,损伤一方?只不过大部分人试图把自己反对的一方放入魔道罢了。

  


  
问个问题,本拉登撞翻双子星,有错么?

  回复[10]:  書記 (2008-04-12 21:42)  
  嘿嘿,我觉得是否要开说明会才是当前的首要问题,蛇博。二博的意见呢?您两位的意见对组织者的决断可是有举足轻重的影响哦。龄相同,习相近嘛。

  回复[11]:  蛇 (2008-04-12 21:58)  
  支招∶当然允许别人支招,但对支招人支的招反感,那也是自由。

  
公投∶这个话题仅是由“谁有资格”而引起的,一下子拔得那么高,怎么爬啊?还弄到拉登那里,吓人~~~

  

  回复[12]: 错了 二子 (2008-04-12 22:16)  
  1,我认为你的反感不是来自支的招儿,而是给谁支招。当然都是自由的。我的意思是我看的是支的招,不是给谁支招。

  
2,公投这个问题并不是从“谁有资格”开始的,而是说谁的观点是受“宣传机器”影响开始的,请上溯到主贴。

  


  
本拉登的问题很简单,就是对藏独的态度和对本拉登的态度摆在一起,想知道大家怎么想的。

  回复[13]: 要公投了? 科长 (2008-04-12 22:31)  
   如果公投的话,俺投“上海独立”

  回复[14]:  蛇 (2008-04-12 22:35)  
  > 我认为你的反感不是来自支的招儿,而是给谁支招

  
你很厉害啊!哈哈,我想什么你都知道?>

  
> 关于西藏问题,按照我看到的,这里只有夏夏亲历过些什么,其他人不过是道听途说,纸上谈兵罢了。

  
↑我是看到这个才说∶如果要是这么说的话,这事只能让藏人自己做主了,要不,干脆让他们搞一把“公投”?跟受“宣传机器”影响无关,要非说有关,你我都在这个圆圈里。

  
> 对藏独的态度和对本拉登的态度

  
不知道怎么个比法。

  

  回复[15]: 恩。就是这个问题了 二子 (2008-04-12 22:47)  
  我那句话是针对你说,这个德国人要求的是开动宣传机器。似乎你很反感这个。那么我想知道在西藏问题上谁不是在受宣传机器影响。除了夏夏,我看大部分人都不过是道听途说罢了。

  
这里好像没有说道让谁作主的问题吧。是你把这个话题引到所谓公投上的。

  
这是我回溯的结果。

  


  
你支持还是反对本拉登?支持还是反对美国针对本拉登的打击?为什么?

  
你支持还是反对藏独?支持还是反对中国政府对藏独的打击?为什么?

  
就这么个比较法。很简单。

  回复[16]:  蛇 (2008-04-12 22:52)  
  回答∶

  
不支持拉等,也不支持美国政府打击拉等;

  
不支持藏独,也不支持中国政府打击藏独。

  
至于为什么嘛,就不说了。

  回复[17]: ok 二子 (2008-04-12 22:54)  
  那就明白了。

  
至少在这个问题上咱们观点完全相同。相当欣慰!

  回复[18]:  黑白子 (2008-04-12 23:09)  
  路过,学习——

  


  

  回复[19]:  期刊 (2008-04-13 00:08)  
  这是谁?咋连胡子也不刮一刮?

  
说到刮胡子,我是坚定的抵制日货派。

  
贝印的东西除了指甲刀还算好用,刮胡子刀简直惨不忍睹。

  回复[20]:  王者非王 (2008-04-14 10:03)  
  这个德国人的分析入木三分,可圈可点。可谓当局者迷旁观者清。佩服。

  回复[21]: 非王先生是当局者还是旁观者? 我是局长 (2008-04-14 10:28)  
  

  回复[22]: 19楼啊 我是局长 (2008-04-14 10:32)  
  说到俺们上中农的心坎里了。

  
我今天早晨还被贝印的剃须刀刮得满下巴生疼。

  
不行,非换一个不可。

  

  回复[23]:  蛇 (2008-04-14 12:35)  
  > 分析入木三分

  
都分析啥了?您给总结总结!

  
+++++

  
连2子都在说:

  
> 这篇文章不是要解决什么问题,是说怎么看问题。他说过要figure out why,然后再fix它?

  
即:

  
> 他说的西方人在举起呐喊的那一刻,根本没有了解tibet,也没有真正试图去了解tibet。

  
> 然后建议双方交流

  
↑这点是我和2子最大的争议,也就是原文what to do?的后两段。

  
2子的读后感是“建议双方交流”,而我的读后感是“支招,而且还是支损招”。

  
因为what to do?之前一直在说达赖如何如何,西方如何如何被达赖一叶樟目了,达赖不等于西藏,但是,what to do?之后突然笔锋一转,说中国该如何如何,而且特别地,中国没有向西方强调达赖集团是“政教合一”,而不是说西方应该如何主动去了解情况,如何主动去交流,所以,怎么感觉都是在“支招”,当然也可以说是建议中国去主动“交流”。

  
其实话又说回来了,这个德国佬的这两“招”算什么啊?他以为GCD的那些御用文人们都很不聪明嘛?

  
切~~~ 想当年,连西方记者都不让进藏(现在是不是自由进藏就不清楚了),如果只听GCD的一面之词,还“交流”个屁啊!!!

  
+++++

  
要说这个德国佬思维清晰、条理分明、逻辑性强等等还可以,可要说他“分析入木三分”,就有点盲从了~~~

  
+++++

  
吃饱了再补充点

  
如果这个德国佬在what to do?之后建议:

  
(1)西方应该主动探求达赖背后的西藏的事实,而不是只听达赖一面之词;

  
(2)建议GCD客观地把西藏的情况公布于世,并允许那些有兴趣的西方人士去考证GCD公布的那些情况,以避免一面之词。真金不怕火炼!

  
个人觉得,如果what to do?之后这样搞一搞、弄一弄还有点参考价值。(瞎白活~~~

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